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Post by razzvio on May 1, 2008 3:21:26 GMT -5
So as a lover of Irish Punk music (mainly the 3 standards, the Pogues, Flogging Molly, and Dropkick Murphys ,among others) I decided to spend my time writing my main paper for a rhetoric class on Irish punk. It has been amazingly enjoyable to delve into some of the history, politics etc but the main point becomes, why do we care? I've been making some pretty broad statements about why people like this music and I thought for the sake of information I would ask the public! Why do YOU like Irish Punk? What is it about the genre that appeals? Is it the culture, the musical history, the political messages, the musicianship, the energy....what about this music speaks to you? I am genuinely curious (and it would really help my paper. If I get a lot of responses I'll load it somewhere and send it here when I'm done!)
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Post by Tom Fucking McSod on May 1, 2008 13:02:15 GMT -5
Damn, that's a thinker, that there is.
Well, I, like most (I imagine) started out as a gutter punk kid. But I'd had a grounding in world music in general. It wasn't until I was like... 15 or 16, tha' I'd known that the two had been combined. An' from there I went off on m'own. I guess, the point now wouldn't be why one started, though, but why one stays doin' it. Or listenin' to it, what have you.
Punk predominately has always been this aggressive, generally faster paced lumbering beast of music. An' generally (The good shite, anyhow) has a sense that most can relate to. The same relativity can be applied to Irish music.
Now, as far as that aggression, you listen to somethin'.. in say a minor 9/8... We'll take for example Hot Asphalt... (Which is, co-incidentally, about killing a cop... LoC fans, anyone?) It's using the music itself, to make the aggression, without blasting the speed through the roof.
Also, traditionally a lot of the old Irish standards were...made accesable. These old songs were passed through townships an' families and what have you. This, I feel, has a distinct connection to the whole diy an' lack of profit ethos that much punk music professes (if not practices).
Now, from the perspective of one who's not just listening to, but making folk-punk music, there are some major appeals. If yer into music at all, the concept of melody - counter melody - harmony is just fun. There's just so much that has the potential to be going on, at any given point.
Also, there's a mass comparison thing. An irish punk band, with (in our case 8) more than a few members can have a mediocre show... But any band we play with has to have an' awesome show to come close. Again, just because there's so much going on.
Lyrically, (now this applies to... pretty much all music, as far as I've been able to tell) punk and irish tend to have way more similarities. Really, though... I don't think there are too many songs, that in some form or another aren't about one of four things. Those being drinking, fighting, loving, or dying (or a combination there-of).
From an audiences perspective... Alot of people have heritage. Alot of people are proud of it. I don't know tha' any Irish band has ever played a show an' *not* had someone come up to them afterwards, an' tell 'em how Grandpa came over on the boat, or their uncle spent three years in the Isle, or how their Mum's maiden name was Finnerty or some such. The other big one I've noticed, is that people tend to dig things that are new to 'em. You see instruments in Irish music, that you... rarely see or hear in the public, or mainstream media. When was the last time anything with an accordion hit the American top 40? Sometimes (an' I'm quite thankful that this happens, some of the time) people just get tired of the same ol' guitar/bass/drum combination that... 95% of bands will never bother with anythin' more of.
Alright, I've gotta get m'arse showered fer work, an' I realize I've been ranting, via keyboard. Hope any of that gargabe helps ya, mang.
~T
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Post by bigmac on May 2, 2008 18:30:02 GMT -5
I am going to agree with and reiterate on what McSod already said. The music is something new, it was some thing different when the pogues first came out with it. most of all for me, and this may not apply to all of you, but when i hear the banjo solo jumping back into the song in Drunken Lullabies my blood is fired. i can't really explain it, i just feel incredible. It's like all the energy from the instruments being played and of all the people playing them plus all the sounds of the crowds from the concerts and raves and pub shows has been channeled into the music. I have yet to find a band that makes you wanna get up and go as much as Flogging Molly. But i think one of the strongest points is with the solos. When i hear the Bagpipes alone for that few seconds near the end of Flannigans Ball(DKM version) i feel a shiver and get all... rrrrrr..... can't even put it into words. stick a fork in your monitor cause, i'm done.
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Post by Professor Gommel on May 3, 2008 2:51:51 GMT -5
A bit on the simpler side for me.
I grew up with the old "Irish Hit Parade", and "The Irish Hour," playing over the radio in the family truckster wagon as my mother took the the whole clather of us kids into Boston for Irish Step Dancing lessons every Saturday for about 10 years, (at one point, there were the six of us dancing! That is, until I quit due to it being tough to survive junior high when you wear a kilt on weekends!)
In any case, accordion, fiddle, banjo, tin whistle; these were instruments I heard regularly in my youth, played by family members, (my grandmother played the accordion and my uncle, the tin whistle and flute), in the folk stuff my mother listened to, and the jigs, reels and hornpipes that I/we danced to.
When the Celtic Punk sound came about, it was just a natural progression of the music that I was at the time into, and the sounds I had known since childhood. Now, you could read into it and wax philosophical about accessibility, or a correlation to simpler times, "comfort-sounds," or whathaveyou, but, to me, it was just a fusion of two types of music that I was familiar with and enjoyed.
Probably woulda' been hard for me NOT to get into it.
Yeah, so, this might not be too typical an answer, and may be of no use to you at all, but, there you go.
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Post by bigmac on May 3, 2008 13:53:55 GMT -5
I have something to add to my own as i was in a bit of a hurry yesterday. A few years ago i got my first mp3, little 512mb thing, tiny by todays standards, and i started looking for music. I forund some good rock stuff that i still listen to but i felt i needed something more. I had heard the jigs and reels and some early stuff by Great Big Sea( whom i still love by the way ) but i wanted something with a bit more energy. I wanted like rock and roll and Irish music... "but... thats impossible" i thought who would play that kind of stuff? after some prelim searches ( Limewire,i'm not proud ) i found this band called... The Dropkick Murphys. and it was awesome, i remember the first track listened to was Spicy McHaggis jig and it just blew me away. i was hooked instantly. a quick search on liveplasma.com showed that some band called The Real McKenzies was kinda close. so i checked them out too and loved em too. By grave and highly unfortunate circumstnces my first flogging molly track was a terrible recording of "Four Dead Cheerleaders" which just made me say "No! Flogging Molly is CRAP! i will not listen to them!" it would not be until some time later, on a bored sunday afternoon that i would revisit them and become inured for life with that epic classic "Drunken Lullabies". soon after i found S'n'O and the rest is history. Still love that Drunken Lullabies tho'. Fckin awesome.
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Post by will on May 5, 2008 3:56:50 GMT -5
Hello mate. I thought someone would do a paper on this whole thing sooner or later.
I've looked at it from all angles, I carry a swag of conflicting emotions and attitudes to the whole thing, depending on particular aesthetics, platitudes and approaches. I variously find the whole thing frivolous (in a good rock'n'roll way and an outright frivolous way), deeply inspiring, derived, pathetic, cynical, bombastic, gimmicky, soulful and REAL beyond belief.
To cut a long story short, I'm a Pogues fan first and foremost.
I'd be glad to correspond with you anytime. I'd love to rant on here but I've recently had surgery and can't stay at the keyboard for longer than about five minutes at a time.
My email is: lime_whisky@yahoo.com.au
Cheers indeed.
Will Swan Sydney, Australia
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Post by will on May 7, 2008 22:25:29 GMT -5
Razzvio,
I'm laid up big time (recovering) and will be for some time yet so your question has got me thinking.
One theme in the 'genre' is that of the anarchic whiskey rover figure and as I see it this character is a device which some of the audience will celebrate/live through when occassion allows.
This character is variously based on the alcoholic 'Celtic' rakish poets such as Brendan Behan and Dylan Thomas, also the Irish navvies (sic?) of the old diaspora and a combination of both. Remembering of course that tradition of the navvy abroad is greatly at odds with the extremely conservative, buttoned-down church state culture from which he came.
Thus, a romantic and wild figure is consolidated and celebrated. The merits of this are dubious. On one hand, this character, tanked-up and singing rebel songs, is the dodgy father of Frank McCourt's Angela's Ashes. On the other hand, he's just a wild bastard having a good time in a bar.
Whatever the case, he comes up way too much in the genre. Lazy writing and thoughtless identification all round.
MacGowan's 'Streams Of Whiskey' is a pure, unfettered and rousing piece of heartfelt songwriting but unfortunately too many people have been trying to write it all over again since.
For my own money, what makes the whole thing interesting is when people take folk punk in their own directions. That's why bands like the Wages of Sin and Mutiny stand out. The Dropkick Murphys hit on a great idea, hardcore blokes drawing on the folk songs, and I always consider them my favourite 'rock band'.
Of course, I have all sorts of factors that give me this take on things, (not that it really matters but I myself play accordion and tin whistle in 'rock' bands, am a hardcore Pogues fan and am a recovered alcoholic who has opened up the can with a trembling hand on more grog-for-breakfast mornings than I can remember. I don't really have that much time for weeked warriors, and all the songs in the world doesn't mean they are anything more or less than that).
Likewise, I have to acknowledge that the 'Irish' term is often a convenience. It links things together but, technically, it barely stands. 'Dirty Old Town' was written by a Scotsman. At least half of The Dubliners' songs were Scottish, English, miscellaneous. The sea shanty tradition that blurs into folk punk is not explicitly 'Irish' at all. The Pogues are a London band and their universe and legends were largely concerned with a London Irish world. I would say that Flogging Molly's 'Drunken Lullabies' was a revelation of exciting punked-up Irish music but that they haven't been that since, save for a couple of songs on the subsequent album. I could go on and on (already am!)
I'm an Australian and from what I've observed we have a different attitude to Irish heritage from a lot of Irish Americans. Irish heritage is not so delineated here, it is a case of another 'British/Celtic' national ingredient. There's a ton of Irish music in traditional Australian music, of course. In this regard, again, it is a case of an ancestral strain.
Hope some of this makes sense. I do blather on, I know.
Here's a health unto the company,
Will
;D
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Post by Tom Fucking McSod on May 8, 2008 2:03:42 GMT -5
Least I wasn't the only one catchin' 'imself rambling. An' well said.
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Post by will on May 9, 2008 8:51:01 GMT -5
Cheers, Boyo. ;D
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Post by will on May 9, 2008 9:00:25 GMT -5
BUT for pure ballsy, Guinness-in-yer-beard, grim-eyed, dark and howling minor key fireside reeling smoke on the high wind, Banshee in the laneway, truncheon-packing shillelagh-flying, mean-fiddlin' Ronnie Drew-respectin' Black Irish adventure you can't beat THE TOSSERS when they're at their best.
I ain't that much of an overanalytical bastard I don't know and acknowledge this. That's the stuff where you know you've got Irish in you alright, when the asphalt is hot and the banjo strings draw blood.
They know the score, I'd call them a great fucken undiluted band, and I've always thought yer man Duggins loves his Dubliners.
(As I always like to say, I saw The Dubliners when I was three).
Mean and spirited, but never mean-spirited. That's the Tossers.
;D
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Post by Professor Gommel on May 9, 2008 16:48:22 GMT -5
BUT for pure ballsy, Guinness-in-yer-beard, grim-eyed, dark and howling minor key fireside reeling smoke on the high wind, Banshee in the laneway, truncheon-packing shillelagh-flying, mean-fiddlin' Ronnie Drew-respectin' Black Irish adventure you can't beat THE TOSSERS when they're at their best. I ain't that much of an overanalytical bastard I don't know and acknowledge this. That's the stuff where you know you've got Irish in you alright, when the asphalt is hot and the banjo strings draw blood. They know the score, I'd call them a great fucken undiluted band, and I've always thought yer man Duggins loves his Dubliners. (As I always like to say, I saw The Dubliners when I was three). Mean and spirited, but never mean-spirited. That's the Tossers. ;D I couldn't agree with you more! The Tossers are easily the top of the current pile in my book! C:
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Post by will on May 10, 2008 10:52:14 GMT -5
Sorry, I was FOUR when I saw the Dubs. We bought 'Dubliners Now' from the merch stand (!) in the lobby of Sydney Town Hall. That's when Jim McCann and Luke Kelly were handling the singing duties and Ronnie was off doing his own thing.
I'm digging that live Tossers dvd during this insanely indolent time of convalescing. Haven't left the house in month. But I'll rise again.
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Post by razzvio on May 11, 2008 19:58:46 GMT -5
Wow...I can't thank you all enough for the generous thoughts and comments. This has been more than helpful and I hope you don't mind if I quote some of you in my paper and presentation (if you do please say so here, I am still checking up on the posts). I'm looking forward to presenting this and I feel like I couldn't have chosen a better topic! For my own personal connection to Irish Punk, I'm a fiddle player and, like most of you, love the musical charisma and ingenuity of all the instruments combined together. This project has been especially fun for me to explore some of the lyrics of the songs and the lives of the musicians a little bit more in depth. I'm glad the topic has sparked such contributions and I'll continue to keep up with it!
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Post by Professor Gommel on May 11, 2008 21:18:21 GMT -5
Hey, good luck with the paper and presentation!
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Post by ruthlessnate on May 11, 2008 23:50:07 GMT -5
BUT for pure ballsy, Guinness-in-yer-beard, grim-eyed, dark and howling minor key fireside reeling smoke on the high wind, Banshee in the laneway, truncheon-packing shillelagh-flying, mean-fiddlin' Ronnie Drew-respectin' Black Irish adventure you can't beat THE TOSSERS when they're at their best. I ain't that much of an overanalytical bastard I don't know and acknowledge this. That's the stuff where you know you've got Irish in you alright, when the asphalt is hot and the banjo strings draw blood. They know the score, I'd call them a great fucken undiluted band, and I've always thought yer man Duggins loves his Dubliners. (As I always like to say, I saw The Dubliners when I was three). Mean and spirited, but never mean-spirited. That's the Tossers. ;D Have to agree with you there, brother. But I'd say Tony's more of a Pogues man. The Tossers are friends of mine and Tony just lights up whenever you ask him about playing with The Pogues. I don't know if this might help you, but I actually wrote an article on Celtic-Rock/Punk the week of St. Patrick's Day '07 for the University of Oklahoma student website. Here's a link: hub.ou.edu/articles/article.php?article_id=475962393&search_id=1428602484There's some quotes in there that I got from members of Jackdaw, The Killigans and Amadan and Paddy Rock Radio's John Bowles. As for my own personal opinions, as both a longtime listener of Celtic-Punk and a member of my own Celtic-Punk band (The Righs - www.myspace.com/therighs - shameless self-promotion, but oh well), I find Celtic-Punk to be a joyous means of celebrating a musical and historic heritage. I'm Celtic by descent. I won't say Irish or anything specific, because I've got that along with English, Scottish, Welsh. The works. My family has been in America so long that the traditional music didn't get passed down through the generations. Celtic music was something I came into on my own, as was punk. I was raised on classic rock and (for a period) country. I didn't get into punk until I was in high school and even then it was a slow process. I had no idea there was such a thing as Celtic-Rock until Jack, my band's lead guitarist and other lead vocalist and songwriter, made me listen to Dropkick Murphy's version of "Fields of Athenry" my freshman year of high school. I was hooked. I soaked up Flogging Molly after I first heard "Salty Dog." I'd fallen in love. I became fascinated, not just with the music but with the narrative and poetry of it, the variance of songwriting. I loved the way the traditional istruments could compliment the guitars and bass and drums. I loved Celtic music and I loved punk, but never in my wildest dreams did I think the two could be combined like that. You look at the genre and there's just so much beauty to it. You have musicians taking the structure of traditional Celtic music that somehow make it complex and diverse. How many songs are there that are in G Major or D Major? You'd think you'd get bored with it, but you don't. Then there's the songwriting. As a fiction writer, I love narratives and many Celtic-Rock songwriters, like Shane MacGowan, the boys from DKM and myself are essentially storytellers as much as we are songwriters. But some of those guys, like Dave King and Tony Duggins (and Jack from my band) are poets. I love the artistry of it all. I don't know if that was very coherent, but yeah. There you go.
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Post by will on May 12, 2008 8:45:35 GMT -5
I tried to have a listen to your songs, mate, but the music link on your myspace ain't working. Very much looking forward to hearing your crew, though.
So, you're mates with The Tossers, ay? Well, that'd be a bloody good gig to get, playing with them! I've been flying their flag since last century, thanks to the good ol' internet.
Veritas Vincit,
Will
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Post by ruthlessnate on May 14, 2008 14:26:55 GMT -5
I tried to have a listen to your songs, mate, but the music link on your myspace ain't working. Very much looking forward to hearing your crew, though. So, you're mates with The Tossers, ay? Well, that'd be a bloody good gig to get, playing with them! I've been flying their flag since last century, thanks to the good ol' internet. Veritas Vincit, Will The music on myspace doesn't work for you? You're the first person to mention that to me, it seems to work fro everybody else. Weird. I'll be trying to send another copy of the CD here soon, and hopefully this one won't get lost in the mail. As for The Tossers, I haven't gotten to play with them yet. John B over at PaddyRock.com sent me to a show they played here in OKC with Reverend Horton Heat in March '07 to do some interviews, and now I get to chill with them at their shows whenever they're in town. They haven't been here since last July though. I'm hoping we can get in on the next one, whenever that is. We did get to open for Flatfoot 56 the day after Paddy's Day this year, though, and that was pretty sweet. They're friends of mine as well. That was a kickass show. That was actually the show that was recorded that I made the post about free downloads.
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Post by Tom Fucking McSod on May 14, 2008 22:16:08 GMT -5
I know it's off topic, but tha' link didn't work fer me, an' I'm curious on you guys.
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Post by ruthlessnate on May 15, 2008 11:29:28 GMT -5
I know it's off topic, but tha' link didn't work fer me, an' I'm curious on you guys. Yeah, sorry, I just realized yesterday that he took that stuff off his website, I guess. I'm going to talk to the guys in the band and we might find a better way (and format) and just release that for free on our myspace or something. I'll let you know. You can check our myspace in the mean time.
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Post by will on May 16, 2008 6:36:06 GMT -5
Sounds like someone's due for a lashing with the cat, then. Maybe just a running of the gauntlet.
Well, looking forward to it. The music, not the inventive maritime corporal punishment. (No indeed, I'm a Retired Captain and Gentleman Of Leisure, ableit in the infirmary, such base crude rituals are no longer for me).
Dutch Chocolate and the very finest tobacco to all,
Swan of the Southern Hemisphere
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Post by pubcrawler13 on May 19, 2008 14:03:30 GMT -5
As usual, my man Will has cut right to the chase like a surgeon - couldn't have said it better myself. With the genre enjoying the popularity that it is right now, I firmly believe that we're balancing on a knife's edge... it will take little more than a nudge at this point to tip the whole thing over into the realm of cliche and self-referential, wink-wink-nudge-nudge camp. I also believe that the stereotype of the hard-drinking yet introspective, bastard-love-child-of-Shane-MacGowan-and-Jack-Kerouac, gutter-eloquent rambler does nothing to prevent that nudge and should be avoided. As much as we're all in love with that pseudo-romantic notion, very few of us live that lifestyle and to pretend otherwise is to do a grave disservice to the music and the people who make and listen to it. Sure, my band have always focused on the drinkin' tunes but we've always done our best to approach it from an honest, down-to-earth perspective and have avoided making it political in any way, which I think is key. Furthermore, we have always been extremely dilligent about referring to ourselves as "Celtic Punk," NOT "Irish Punk." As stated above, the Celtic culture covers a vast geographical area and several countries and we try to draw from all of them.
Sorry... just realized I did a bit of ramblin' myself, there!
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Post by Captain Kelly's Bollocks on May 19, 2008 22:49:46 GMT -5
As usual, my man Will has cut right to the chase like a surgeon - couldn't have said it better myself. With the genre enjoying the popularity that it is right now, I firmly believe that we're balancing on a knife's edge... it will take little more than a nudge at this point to tip the whole thing over into the realm of cliche and self-referential, wink-wink-nudge-nudge camp. I also believe that the stereotype of the hard-drinking yet introspective, bastard-love-child-of-Shane-MacGowan-and-Jack-Kerouac, gutter-eloquent rambler does nothing to prevent that nudge and should be avoided. As much as we're all in love with that pseudo-romantic notion, very few of us live that lifestyle and to pretend otherwise is to do a grave disservice to the music and the people who make and listen to it. Sure, my band have always focused on the drinkin' tunes but we've always done our best to approach it from an honest, down-to-earth perspective and have avoided making it political in any way, which I think is key. Furthermore, we have always been extremely dilligent about referring to ourselves as "Celtic Punk," NOT "Irish Punk." As stated above, the Celtic culture covers a vast geographical area and several countries and we try to draw from all of them. Sorry... just realized I did a bit of ramblin' myself, there! I agree. I can't help laughing when someone refers to Real McKenzies or The Porters as Irish punk. Not directed at anyone here though. Just because it mixes folk or celtic and punk does not mean it is "Irish" punk music. I like to refer to it as either celtic or folk punk.
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Post by Tom Fucking McSod on May 20, 2008 3:32:07 GMT -5
Said it before... say it again... Folk-punk is mother.
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Post by will on May 20, 2008 10:35:02 GMT -5
I came up with 'Colonial Punk' but for Australian stuff but that's pretty dodgy in a lot of ways. I mean, technically, that could be Indian/British Raj-style punk! And it's not like those songs weren't sung after Australia federated at the turn of the last Century. And we're not a bloody bunch of colonies anyway. So basically, that term sucks. Nonetheless, as far as I know, Catgut Mary are still throwing it around, by way of a thumbnail description, and I THINK The Currency might have started using it too. Ah fuck it, not the first term I've added to the greater post-Colonial lexicon, not by a long shot (Or re-introduced; that dictionary of slang served me well even at school).
(And great to have those New England Celtic Punks represented here and all. I say this as I'm reading a book by one Mr McCullough simply called '1776'. Beautifully illustrated. I'll come over and visit ALL you bastards one day. I'm not joking, I will.)
I also reckon that folk punk is a good 'un, I like the way Mutiny just used that term and were done with it.
HOWEVER, I've heard it applied to everyone from Against Me! (who I love) to boring tuneless art college sort of stuff too.
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Post by Captain Kelly's Bollocks on May 20, 2008 11:36:52 GMT -5
I tend to think of something being folk punk if there are no pipes. For me that is the deciding factor whether something is considered celtic or folk punk. This probably isn't very accurate, but oh well.
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Post by Paddy Rollingstone on May 20, 2008 11:42:14 GMT -5
BRIAN: Are you the Judean People's Front? REG: Fuck off! BRIAN: What? REG: Judean People's Front. We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean People's Front. Cawk. FRANCIS: Wankers.
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Post by will on May 20, 2008 22:03:28 GMT -5
As always, as ever ... Python saves the day.
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Post by 1788 Dens of Sin on May 21, 2008 23:26:38 GMT -5
That is so fucking cool that you're writing some shite about Irish Punk - all the best and I hope I get the chance to read your stuff at some point. I've only just read your message as I've had my head up my own arse a lot this year. I've only skim-read this thread so not sure if it duplicates, but I'll point you to the note I wrote a couple of years ago when I first joined this site about how I got into this type of music - shitenonions.proboards29.com/index.cgi?board=FM&action=display&thread=728 Might be of use/interest to ya. Its more about me than the music - but wtf ;-)
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Post by will on May 22, 2008 10:30:46 GMT -5
Good to catch up again, Alex. I got out of MySpace because I ended up having to wade through loads bullshit, because I don't like to be rude, I ended up spending over half an hour a day having to get back to people I didn't know why I was in touch with in the first place and barely had time for all the old Paddypunk salts and all.
Indeed, I'd love to come down to Middle Earth some time, maybe even next summer. My brother's done two stints in Dunedin and came back sporting new tattoos and tales of insanely low award wages. He loves the place, though. When I was three we lived in New Plymouth for a wee while, I remember the green meadows and the looming volcano.
Looking at getting a new accordion, being laid up like this I got to thinking and realized the big fuck-off Hohner is just too fucken big, I want something more compact. And blue. I want a blue accordion.
I don't drink anymore so there'll be no Speights or Steinlager (ah, Steinies, used to drink that stuff at uni) BUT I have a long-term and vaguely-managed CHEESE HABIT and thus will disgrace myself in NZ, what with my fucked up all-or-nothing thing. You will be embarrassed and send me back home in a limejuice tub.
Cheers,
Will Swan Sponsored by Dixon tin whistles and King Island Dairy blue brie
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